A pedestrian checks a cellular gadget in entrance of the Uber Applied sciences Inc. headquarters constructing in San Francisco, California. Photographer: David Paul Morris/Bloomberg© 2017 Bloomberg Finance LP

In 2015, Seattle handed an ordinance that offered for collective bargaining between for-rent car drivers and their companies, together with Uber and Lyft. The ordinance was challenged by the Chamber of Commerce, and the case shortly made its strategy to the Ninth Circuit Courtroom of Appeals. After the Circuit dominated that Seattle’s ordinance was probably not “clearly approved” by the State of Washington, Seattle lately entered right into a compromise by which it eliminated funds to drivers from the themes of collective bargaining.

So long as there’s federal jurisdiction, federal regulation has “supremacy” over state regulation or over municipal regulation, which is a delegation from state regulation. Nevertheless, antitrust’s state-motion exemption usually immunizes state legal guidelines that authorize conduct that may in any other case violate federal antitrust regulation. Within the Seattle case, the principally litigated concern has been the scope of the state-motion exemption and whether or not it extends to the municipal ordinance in query.

In a controversial amicus temporary, the Federal Commerce Fee (FTC) and Division of Justice (DOJ) sided with Uber, arguing that the state-motion exemption didn’t immunize the Seattle ordinance and assuming that the collective bargaining exercise contemplated by the ordinance would in any other case violate Part 1 of the Sherman Act. Given the unsure borders of the labor exemption to antitrust, which protects collective bargaining exercise in addition to the unilateral collective motion of staff as to the phrases and circumstances of their work, unbiased contractors stay in a state of authorized uncertainty relating to exercising their coordination rights. The competitors authorities usually appear to imagine that they’re unprotected.

Some commentators similar to Marshall Steinbaum highlighted the dissonance between the FTC’s and DOJ’s anti-labor views and the company’s unique mission, as captured within the FTC Act, to deconcentrate personal financial energy from trusts to smaller financial brokers.

Uber itself has been the goal of a current antitrust go well with. An Uber passenger introduced an antitrust case, on behalf of himself and different Uber passengers, alleging a conspiracy towards Uber, for fixing costs amongst all of its “unbiased” drivers. In March 2018, the district courtroom granted Uber’s movement to compel arbitration.

In a brand new article titled “Antitrust As Allocator of Coordination Rights,” Sanjukta Paul explains that antitrust regulation allocates the proper to coordinate selections resembling pricing or output throughout financial brokers, and does so favorably for giant highly effective companies however unfavorably for staff’ organizations and small companies or “micro-enterprises.” The ostensible foundation to want coordination by giant companies is selling competitors by means of the pursuit of effectivity. However even that foundation, Paul argues, fails to elucidate many antitrust selections that yield vital coordination rights to giant companies whereas undermining competitors by way of concentrating energy. To succeed in parity of remedy between these types of coordination, Paul requires liberalizing horizontal coordination rights past agency boundaries whereas offering mechanisms for public oversight.

Has antitrust steered too far in favor of huge companies? And in that case, what’s one of the simplest ways to redirect the antitrust businesses again to a mission of dispersing personal financial energy? To reply these questions, we invited Wayne State College Regulation Faculty’s Sanjukta Paul, Worldwide Middle for Regulation and Economics’ Geoffrey ManneMarshall Steinbaum of the Roosevelt Institute, and fellow Bytes contributor Jodi Beggs to a Bytes Chat. The Chat was moderated by Hal Singer, editor of Washington Bytes and Senior Fellow of the George Washington Institute of Public Coverage. The transcript was edited frivolously for readability, and every contributor had the chance to refine solutions and add hyperlinks after the Chat.

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Hal Singer: Greetings, y’all. Seems like some folks have jumped the gun on our chat. However that is the official model proper right here.

Geoff Manne: Such a management freak, Hal.

Marshall Steinbaum: Sort of like Uber.

Jodi Beggs: If Uber have been truly a management freak, it will make drivers staff so it might inform them when and the place to work.

Steinbaum: However it does precisely that with out re-classifying them! Actually that’s your complete level.

Manne: Amen, Jodi. In any case, right here’s the important thing level: Why ought to worker/contractor standing underneath employment legal guidelines be related to the evaluation of damage beneath antitrust regulation?

Steinbaum: Chat over.

Singer: Chat starting. Let’s begin with the FTC’s choice to again Uber—contra the pursuits of Uber’s drivers—within the Seattle case. Why did the Ohlhausen/McSweeny-led FTC and the Delrahim-led Division of Justice really feel the necessity to weigh in right here? How does limiting the coordination rights of Uber drivers or any gig-financial system staff match into the FTC’s bigger mission of dispersing financial energy?

Steinbaum:It’s a part of their lengthy-operating marketing campaign to roll again the state motion exemption, which Sandeep Vaheesan has proven is a component of a bigger mission to “accommodate capital and police labor.”

Manne: Hal’s query is the mistaken query in case you’re truly making an attempt to know the FTC’s curiosity right here. The proper query is: “Is the FTC doing an important factor it could actually do, or simply oneof an important, in taking over state actions that prop up cartels and in any other case use the facility of the state to violate antitrust legal guidelines for the good thing about a popular constituency?”

Singer: Kinda appreciated my query tbh. How about we let our particular visitor converse?

Sanjukta Paul: To reply Hal’s query whether or not the FTC’s determination to weigh in on the Seattle case squares with its mission, the brief reply is, it doesn’t. Limiting the coordination rights of small gamers, together with gig financial system staff, runs counter to that mission, as a result of looser coordination amongst small gamers helps to take care of the dispersal of energy. Conversely, if we’re permissive towards company consolidation and inflexible towards the unfastened coordination of small gamers, the predictable result’s the additional focus of choice-making and energy. To be truthful to the FTC and DOJ, they have been appearing very a lot within the spirit of the general antitrust paradigm that has ruled our world since across the late 1970’s, which favors financial coordination centered in giant, highly effective companies however seems askance on another type: staff’ organizations, looser coordination past agency boundaries, and public coordination of markets. As I argue within the paper, that paradigm favors consolidation exactly as a result of it concentrates determination-making and energy—not regardless of it.

Steinbaum: So, it doesn’t match their bigger mission, or a minimum of match the intent of the FTC Act, which is, as Hal says, to disperse energy. As an alternative, that temporary, amongst others, exhibits that they really need to focus it. It’s additionally a part of an extended-operating marketing campaign on the FTC’s half to carve out regulatory area for Uber’s enterprise mannequin and stop any problem to that enterprise mannequin. See, for instance, the letter that the heads of all of the bureaus despatched to a Chicago alderman in 2014 (I feel) telling him that the “Free Market” signifies that Uber must be allowed to make use of surge pricing.

Paul: And sure, rolling again the state-motion exemption is one other facet of that very same challenge.

Manne: A theme of Sanjukta’s paper (and apparently Sandeep’s writings) is that the FTC is a witting software of capitalist oppression.  That is… uh, methods to put this properly… unsupported. The FTC letter Marshall cites isn’t about doing Uber’s bidding or cynically carving out some kind of antitrust exception for its enterprise mannequin. Because the FTC letter states, “absent some particular proof that a specific pricing mannequin will hurt shoppers, [Chicago] ought to clearly permit for higher flexibility and experimentation in structuring charges with a view to facilitate revolutionary types of pricing which will profit shoppers.” Flexibility, experimentation and innovation for the good thing about shoppers. Doesn’t actually sound like defending Uber from problem. Do we’ve to/need to get into this now or in any respect?

Beggs: As a aspect impact, the FTC’s coverage drives a much bigger wedge between staff and unbiased contractors so far as rights are involved, which in all probability gained’t assist dispel the arguments that staff are having with their employers over their standing.

Manne: The FTC has litigated instances for years that on the sovereign immunity difficulty (like NC Dental or Phoebe Putney) due to its concern that state regulation can defend anticompetitive conduct—like dentists excluding competitors from non-dentists to whiten tooth—for the good thing about a small group on the expense of shoppers. Also called lease looking for. The issue, in fact, is that authorities-created cartels are protected by regulation. This is the reason the Supreme Courtroom has repeatedly sided with the FTC in these instances and held that state-motion immunity is “disfavored.” There are tons of examples of regionally highly effective industries capturing their regulators (like dental or medical boards, taxi commissions, or metropolis councils) and implementing exclusionary laws—like caps on the variety of licenses—that bar new entry. The FTC amicus temporary is wholly according to this lengthy-standing curiosity in ensuring that municipalities and licensing entities don’t facilitate or interact in anticompetitive conduct, besides when expressly approved by the state legislature and intently supervised by the state.

Singer: Sure, Geoff, completely in keeping with Supreme Courtroom precedent that favors the highly effective.

Manne: Nicely, you requested if it match the FTC’s mission of “dispersing energy.” It clearly does. And what’s with the conspiracy theories?

Steinbaum: It’s not a conspiracy principle. Uber’s antitrust lawyer is now the Deputy Director of the Bureau of Competitors. And sure, as Sanjukta says, Uber is itself an unlawful worth- and wage-fixing conspiracy.

Paul: Uber is the conspiracy. Antitrust is ok with conspiracies when they’re managed by concentrated capital, and have interaction in coordination by means of hierarchy.

Manne: So the truth that a lawyer who labored on the FTC for six years, Verizon for 10 years, and Uber for a mere 2 years simply returned to the FTC — that is proof that the FTC is on a cynical mission to prop up Uber?… Wait, Sanjukta: Uber is a “conspiracy”?!?!?

Steinbaum: What Sanjukta stated. Sure, it fixes costs for tens of hundreds of unbiased companies. Uber’s conduct is per seunlawful, in line with all of the instances you cited above (barring state motion, for sure, which Uber has gone to nice pains to keep away from). Though now, in fact, they need state legislatures to retroactively legalize their enterprise mannequin. See that terrible Useful invoice in New York State.

Beggs: Apparently, there’s a positive line between “worth fixing” and “a enterprise having an inventory worth,” however I assume this simply comes again to the semantics of Uber’s enterprise mannequin definition.

Manne: So, the declare is that Uber engages in worth fixing with its drivers? Nevertheless it doesn’t coordinate with them. It provides them a service, at a take-it-or-depart-it worth.

Steinbaum: Oh, Uber presents a service to drivers? Then the temporary you lauded above is strictly, exactly incorrect.

Manne: The FTC/DOJ temporary? How?

Steinbaum: The premise of the FTC/DOJ temporary is that Uber is a two-sided platform and the state-motion exemption is restricted to the client-dealing with aspect of the platform, not the driving force aspect. Ergo Seattle lacks immunity. However in response to you, Uber doesn’t cope with clients in any respect. Subsequently, the drivers’ collective bargaining is the truth is coated by the state-motion exemption.

Manne: Uh, no, Marshall, I did not say “Uber doesn’t cope with clients in any respect.”Regardless, that’s not what the temporary says in any respect, both. It doesn’t relaxation in any means on Uber’s two-sidedness, and it definitely doesn’t suggest in any method that if Uber doesn’tcope with clients, Seattle is free to authorize drivers to collude. What the temporary truly says is “given the state statute at difficulty, the Supreme Courtroom says the town can regulate transportation providers; it doesn’t say it might regulate driver negotiations over Uber’s charges.”

Steinbaum: That’s in truth the FTC’s place. Learn the temporary.

Manne: I’ve learn the temporary. And I’ve learn your weblog submit on it. Your characterization is incorrect. However don’t take my phrase for it; the Ninth Circuit stated the identical factor in ruling towards the town: “though the statute addresses the supply of transportation providers, it’s silent on the difficulty of compensation contracts between for-rent drivers and driver coordinators.”

Paul: Geoff, how do you justify Uber’s worth-setting for rides beneath the established order antitrust guidelines that, as I perceive it, you usually assume are doing effective?

Manne: How do you justify any enterprise setting a worth for something?

Paul: Geoff, is it your place that Uber sells rides?

Manne: Uber doesn’t promote rides. Uber sells logistical providers. The service it provides to drivers is totally different than the one it presents to riders.

Paul: Does Uber promote rides to shoppers?

Manne: No, Uber doesn’t present rides.

Singer: I need to get Jodi in right here for the econ take. Let’s assume the FTC is motivated by a want to advertise competitors. Let’s think about a parallel universe by which Uber’s drivers can coordinate on their wages or “wage shares” (the portion of the fare captured by the driving force). What’s the hurt to competitors, assuming no improve in fares, if the impact of the drivers’ coordination is merely to extend the wage share from the present sixty one % to (say) seventy five %? Or is it not potential to shift the wage shares with out additionally growing fares for passengers?

Beggs: Nicely one necessary distinction I want to make for starters is between “inconceivable” and “not revenue maximizing.” Inconceivable? In all probability not, provided that Uber’s enterprise mannequin usually appears to be to eat by means of countless VC cash anyway. However yeah, if it was maximizing revenue earlier than a pay improve to drivers, then persevering with to maximise revenue would more than likely end in greater fares to riders and fewer rides bought. One fascinating factor is that the drivers could possibly be much less more likely to really feel the “fewer rides” a part of this, since they’re very small in comparison with the general rideshare ecosystem. (In different phrases, the change may present itself as fewer drives slightly than drivers every giving fewer rides.) This creates totally different calculations relating to greater fares for drivers versus for the corporate.

Steinbaum: Driver collective bargaining would actually be professional-aggressive, as a result of Uber is a monopsonist. One other instance the place the FTC and DOJ don’t perceive economics.

Manne: The set-as much as Hal’s query is all flawed.

Singer: Thanks. Framing is the whole lot.

Manne: It’s simply not a wise means to take a look at this situation. Journey-share drivers don’t earn “wages”; they’re not employed by Uber or Lyft or different transportation community firm (TNC). They earn fares from riders (at a price set by the TNC), and the TNC retains a portion of that in change for the service it supplies in providing the platform. Like a franchisor. Or… anybody else promoting a service. So Uber drivers are customers, on this set-up, considerably akin to enter suppliers (or shoppers). To reply your query, Hal, cartelization by drivers to drive down the worth they pay Uber would probably result in greater rider charges, or probably it might.

Singer: Sanjukta, might this be the coverage foundation for the FTC’s intervening in the best way it did? To maintain fares low? I’m simply making an attempt to assist them out.

Paul: To start with, when you consider Uber’s personal account of what it does, you shouldn’t consider the coordination as a wage share. In line with Uber, drivers promote rides to clients, and Uber sells using software program to each drivers and riders. Nicely, then using the software program is an enter into drivers’ manufacturing course of, and permitting drivers to discount of their bargains with Uber lowers the price of an enter, not vice versa. So costs drivers can cost ought to go down (on this logic).

Steinbaum: Okay so we’re in nonsense Amex world and now Uber is actually a two-sided platform? I agree with Sanjukta’s level concerning the course of the pricing strain.

Manne:I’ll simply do the smart factor and ignore Marshall making an attempt to get an increase.

Paul: Second, to be completely trustworthy I feel it’s actually troublesome to assume when it comes to drivers’ share having an “impact” on costs in any respect, as a result of I feel Uber’s pricing selections are each extra opaque than they recommend, and are comparatively unconstrained by the issues we’d assume they’re constrained by. I most definitely don’t assume the algorithm passively implements the “market” worth, as Uber’s CEO Kalanick famously stated a number of years in the past. Third, frankly I feel Uber’s enterprise selections, together with pricing selections, are far more geared towards their upcoming IPO and towards the monetary markets than anything. I feel Uber has numerous causes to set costs particularly ways in which have little to do with precisely what proportion goes to drivers, so it’s removed from evident that that proportion would have an effect on costs in any specific means.

Steinbaum: Sanjukta is true. It’s incoherent to say that growing the wage share that Uber pays to drivers would trigger rider fares to go up. It looks like Uber’s pricing coverage is extra worth discrimination now than it’s elevating fares throughout the board.

Paul: It’s definitely clear that their pricing selections work together with (a) their investor-dealing with selections and (b) market dominance, excess of with driver share. Uber needs to show future dominance to buyers.

Beggs: I feel company pricing (i.e., the place one celebration’s “worth” is a proportion of one other worth–the worth that the buyer pays–versus a hard and fast quantity) is a brand new factor that has not been nicely thought by means of from an financial perspective but.

Steinbaum: I feel it’s fairly clear that Uber is engaged in some model of predatory pricing to monopolize the market anyway.

Manne: [Mutters to self: “Ignore Marshall. Ignore Marshall. Ignore Marshall.”]

Beggs: I would not put it as strongly as Marshall did, however I do assume there’s a distinction in incentives between Uber and its drivers. Particularly, Uber may need to seize market share, push others out of enterprise, and so on., however drivers probably see Uber as a brief-time period gig and thus don’t actually care if Uber takes over in the long term. This may make them much less more likely to go together with decrease costs with a purpose to seize market share, and so forth.

Manne: In fact there’s a distinction in incentives between Uber and every particular person driver. It’s much less clear if the pursuits of drivers in toto are so distant from Uber’s, however presumably they’re not equivalent.

Steinbaum: Sure, I agree with Jodi. I feel a key dimension of the mismatched incentives, given the non-worker standing, is that Uber needs drivers activated as a lot as attainable, but in addition empty, so it has spare capability it doesn’t need to compensate them for. Whereas in fact drivers need to be full when they’re activated.

Beggs: That’s considerably totally different from what I used to be saying however believable, yeah.

Singer: In her new paper, Sanjukta argues that Uber’s personal coordination on its pricing of experience-hailing providers would represent impermissible worth-fixing beneath the FTC’s development of Part 1 of the Sherman Act that barred drivers’ collective bargaining. And but the FTC is just not pursuing Uber on worth-fixing grounds. That feels like hypocrisy. Sanjukta, are you able to break this down for our readers? What permits the FTC to embrace these seemingly contradictory positions?

Paul: Positive. The development of Part 1 operative within the Seattle case says that worth coordination between drivers is impermissible worth-fixing, per se. For that purpose, the Chamber of Commerce contends that the native ordinance that beforehand approved that coordination is preempted by federal regulation. In the meantime, Uber unilaterally units costs for rides charged by drivers, the identical drivers antitrust supposedly regards as rivals barred from coordination themselves. I’m positive we’re going to get additional into particulars of the regulation right here, however on an enormous-image degree this simply doesn’t make sense. The FTC presumably finally cares about results on riders (in response to its description of its shopper-welfare mission) and cares about drivers’ bargains with Uber to the extent that impacts shopper costs, as we simply mentioned. And they’re subscribed to the concept coordination of costs is dangerous for shoppers. OK, in that case, how is it that worth coordination is ok when laundered via a properly-financed company, however not when the little guys do it? And if you wish to distinguish between the varieties of coordination right here (on shopper costs vs. bargains between drivers and Uber), shouldn’t direct coordination on costs to shoppers by Uber be a lot worsefrom the standpoint of final shopper welfare, on this logic?

Manne: What coordination by Uber? That is the place the truth that there’s no settlement is available in. Drivers don’t “agree” with Uber. Uber unilaterally presents a service at a worth. In a labor market during which Uber has nearly no share, drivers determine whether or not to purchase the service or not. It units the time and distance charges (and different elements which are a part of the fare calculation) for rides booked by means of its platform. However Uber is a single entity. The hundreds of thousands of drivers who use TNCs achieve this in an effort to earn cash by driving individuals round of their automobiles. They’re additionally unbiased actors. Identical to somebody making an attempt to earn cash by promoting one thing on eBay, say. (For which eBay takes a reduce and units the phrases, and so forth.). The platforms set the charges; drivers take it or depart it. The place’s the coordination?

Paul: The coordination by Uber is, plainly, coordinating costs for experience providers provided by Uber drivers, amongst different issues. I feel that the FTC’s stance right here is because of a deeper tendency to defer to coordination when accomplished inside and by giant, highly effective companies. What’s fascinating concerning the Uber case is that right here, that deeper tendency has truly outstripped the attain of the constructive regulationitself (although the tendency is definitely within the constructive regulation as nicely) so it actually lays naked a number of the first rules that we don’t usually see or talk about.

Steinbaum: Uber allocates and divides the market. It is a cartel supervisor, similar as Normal Oil was for the nineteenth century railroad cartel.

Manne: So you could be stunned to listen to I’ve some sympathy with the argument in Sanjukta’s paper that antitrust might prohibit coordination an excessive amount of in numerous methods.

Paul: Aww love this theme.

Manne: However I don’t assume that what Uber does is “coordination” of the antitrust / worth fixing type.

Beggs: So often the best way that competitors brings costs down is by growing provide. On this case, growing driver provide doesn’t essentially get costs down until Uber chooses to decrease them. That stated, I don’t agree that it is coordination per se.

Steinbaum: I assumed Sanjukta put this nicely at a convention we each attended a number of months again: If the church-organists skilled group the FTC was so enraged by had as an alternative programmed an app to match organists to church buildings, and prevented members of the group from matching with church buildings aside from by way of the app, the FTC would have been sending letters about how #progressive the church organists have been, as an alternative of suing them.

Paul: I’m making an attempt to know the simple attraction to “companies set costs” right here. I hear you and Geoff saying that Uber is setting an inventory worth for a very good or service like several enterprise. But in addition that it does not promote that good. Geoff, do you assume I as a agency have the proper to set costs in a market I am not myself (as a agency) concerned in? At a minimal, we’re means past any consensus understanding of what companies do at this level.

Beggs: Name it what you need, however drivers undoubtedly don’t get to set costs, nor do riders, so by means of elimination…

Manne: So let’s do market definition.

Singer: No, Geoff. Not in a per se, worth-fixing case!

Paul: Truly, earlier than we get to market definition we’ve got to do agency definition.

Manne: It’s not a per se case, Hal. And there are a pair related markets right here. However let’s go full Amex. The primary difficulty right here is the market by which Uber’s platform operates, which connects riders and drivers. Uber presents platform providers — it sells logistics. To drivers. Uber units the worth for that.

Paul: Okay. Do they set costs in anything?

Manne: Sure. However so what? They set numerous different phrases of use on the platform together with rider costs, in addition to a few billion different issues.

Beggs: Worth-setting rights are logistically unbiased from who truly sells the great (minimal marketed worth guidelines, for instance), so I might argue that Uber saying it doesn’t promote the great doesn’t imply an entire lot in sensible phrases.

Manne: Proper.

Paul: Logistically unbiased? We’re speaking concerning the regulation right here, and the understanding of the agency assumed by the regulation, I assumed.

Manne: Uber has the best to set costs for the factor (rides) bought by drivers by way of its platform. It doesn’t should promote rides to try this.

Steinbaum: It’s fixing the worth of the transaction that’s happening, no matter whether or not it’s or isn’t get together to the transaction.

Manne: Now you’re taking concerning the different transaction, proper?

Steinbaum: That is the type of meaningless debate that Elzinga made enjoyable of in his critique of the Hen Delight case (Siegel v. Hen Delight 1971), however I assume now that’s…. a matter of substance all of us have principled positions on?

Manne: There are a number of transactions right here. One between Uber and drivers. One between Uber and riders. One between drivers and riders.

Beggs: Use the Kindle retailer for instance. During the last eight or so years, we have seen pricing rights allotted each to the publishers and to Amazon no matter who’s seen as promoting a Kindle ebook, the pricing authority could be held by a special celebration.

Paul: That is the entire level. This type of “pricing proper” is novel. And Amazon has the identical drawback!

Beggs: I feel Amazon and iTunes are pioneers nevertheless it’s nonetheless a reasonably new factor yeah.

Manne: I don’t assume it’s so novel. For instance, development companies set costs on giant tasks they run, although usually what they’re doing is challenge administration, not offering the underlying development providers.

Beggs: *whispers* Didn’t the Apple model of the Kindle retailer get sued for… worth fixing?

Steinbaum: Sure!

Paul: Sure on a really comparable principle!

Manne: Additionally, I feel the Amazon parallel is an effective one. Or eBay.

Paul: I agree the Amazon parallel is an effective one, however draw a unique inference from that.

Manne: Not equivalent, in fact, as a result of eBay doesn’t set the costs of merchandise, however it does set many different massively related phrases of commerce, regardless that it doesn’t promote merchandise itself.

Beggs: The settlement within the Apple lawsuit result in Amazon doing the “worth set by writer” factor on their website, in order that they did change pricing rights in at the very least some instances.

Singer: Let me decide up one thing you guys talked about earlier. Perhaps an effectivity protection to its “worth coordination,” a characterization that I do know Geoff rejects. Experience-hailing companies like Uber and Lyft may argue that numerous efficiencies justify their worth coordination relating to setting fares. Is there a purpose why Uber the mothership would need decrease charges than would a single driver (the place pricing can be set absent the alleged coordination)? Might it’s the fee-construction by which Uber is compensated? For instance, may Uber the mothership be insensitive to some prices which might be uniquely born by the drivers, akin to the driving force’s alternative value, which militates in favor of Uber setting decrease fares? Additionally, the mothership may need entry to raised info than would a single driver—e.g., variety of calls, variety of different drivers, location of calls/different drivers/pricing by taxis—which uniquely permits Uber to take advantage of a worth-discrimination technique, thereby growing income with out essentially decreasing output. Are these respectable efficiencies?

Steinbaum: Hal is strictly proper—drivers face a price for activation, however Uber doesn’t, and Uber decides in the event that they get a fare or not.

Paul: Do we actually assume spending billions of dollars perfecting this pricing technique is by some means environment friendly? Is it socially helpful?

Singer: You are answering my query with a query? That is not allowed right here.

Paul: Even crediting all of this, none of it impacts the comparability at problem right here: between Uber’s coordination of shopper costs and drivers’ hypothetical coordination of their bargains with Uber. The issues you’ve recognized all regard the shopper worth, so these “efficiencies” might all be realized by Uber’s coordination whereas drivers coordinate as to their bargains with Uber.

Beggs: Nicely… perfecting the pricing technique for which celebration? The incentives are undoubtedly not aligned to result in a universally optimum answer.

Paul: Okay, it’s not socially helpful in any respect then! Glad to agree with that.

Singer: However does Uber’s coordination maybe result in decrease fares relative to a world through which drivers set fares?

Paul: As I’ve stated, I don’t assume antitrust ought to maintain out the “no-coordination case” because the normative benchmark for applicable costs—or anything. So to be clear, I don’t assume worth coordination is a nasty factor. Nevertheless, I feel selectively making use of the no-coordination norm—to drivers however to not Uber—is flawed and dangerous in addition to inconsistent beneath the constructive regulation. That stated, if we are persistently making use of the regulation, you don’t have to point out that buyers paid greater costs. That isn’t a authorized aspect of a worth-fixing case. That’s what makes it per se! And that may apply to a hub-and-spoke association like this one, as certainly Decide Rakoff held earlier than Uber obtained the Second Circuit to kick the case to arbitration. Lastly, in case you get into rule of cause territory and also you’re capable of persuade a decide that the buyer welfare normal justifies Uber’s coordination however not drivers … properly, at that time I don’t see a clearer indictment of the buyer-welfare commonplace.

Manne: Uber, et al. don’t even have to depend on efficiencies. First, they might argue they not coordinating something, so go blow. Second, the alleged restraint is an ancillary restraint — i.e., it’s not the first object of an settlement, nevertheless it’s mandatory for the right functioning of the goals envisaged by an settlement. And third, the courts don’t actually do per se a lot anymore, so efficiencies are extra just like the a priori debate over whether or not we condemn the conduct underneath per se or not (see, e.g., the Apple eBooks case (particularly the dissent)). However, in fact, over and above all that, there areefficiencies.

Steinbaum: I am going to throw in the truth that not solely is Uber in a singular place to cost-discriminate, however they themselves additionally boast of accelerating effectivity by monitoring drivers to scale back ethical hazard.

Paul: Hal, that is my least favourite query.

Singer: However we’d like some econ Sanjukta!

Paul: Do we actually??

Singer: Econ Uber Regulation.

Manne: Uniform pricing is essential to Uber’s enterprise. Therefore, that is an ancillary restraint (if it’s a restraint in any respect).

Paul: I agree with Geoff one hundred% on the primary half—uniform pricing is essential to Uber’s enterprise. (Hal, did you see that?)

Steinbaum: The efficiencies that Uber has claimed for itself have been a public admission that it violates labor regulation. Which was humorous to see occur in actual time on the NBER Summer time Institute when that paper was introduced.

Beggs: What appears to be occurring partially is that Uber is prepared to let the brief time period be a loss chief for the long run, and I doubt that the majority drivers are prepared to make the identical tradeoff, so what is sweet for Uber might be not what is sweet for the drivers, despite the fact that the “however we solely get a % of what you get so everybody needs to maximise the pie” sounds good in case you do not give it some thought an excessive amount of.

Steinbaum: Precisely.

Paul: Past that, it’s unattainable to consider Uber’s pricing technique in abstraction from their investor-dealing with technique. And investor selections don’t monitor operational income, as each Uber and personal fairness present in converse methods.

Beggs: That is true, however Uber does not appear to have any hassle attracting capital no matter their particular selections.

Paul: I feel Uber cares extra about promoting itself to the (monetary) market than anything. It isn’t completely apparent what the lengthy-time period technique on operational income (or revenue) truly is. However does it matter if share values maintain going up? Lengthy sufficient for the individuals presently making selections no less than?

Singer: Let’s get again to Sanjukta’s paper. She argues that “if we intend to dismantle the monopolistic and oligopolistic market coordination that has confirmed so pernicious, we would require different types of coordination to exchange them.” She asserts that enjoyable enforcement of Part 1 claims towards coordination throughout small companies is important to attacking our monopoly drawback. How far ought to we go in legalizing horizontal coordination past agency boundaries? Sanjukta, are you actually suggesting legalizing all cartels?

Paul: I do assume we should always liberalize loads of horizontal coordination that doesn’t happen inside companies, together with some which may presently be known as a “cartel,” together with addressing monopoly, as a result of I feel the 2 are self-reinforcing. For instance, failure to deal with monopoly contributes to differential entry to capital amongst much less and extra highly effective individuals; buyers are eager about progress by means of elevated market share, and so on.

Beggs: This dialog makes me assume that it is value having a authorized distinction between “1099 employee” and “small enterprise.”

Manne: Positive. Uber drivers are small companies.

Beggs: Besides they are not actually, a minimum of not because it pertains to this context, if for no different cause than small enterprise usually have pricing authority.

Manne: I’m unsure why it issues for this 1099/small enterprise distinction if they’re worth takers.

Steinbaum: This is an concept: Coordination is authorized if the events don’t have market energy; unlawful in the event that they do.

Beggs: That is type of my level. Uber drivers do not have market energy in any significant method above and past that of staff, so it is absurd to provide them totally different collective motion rights.

Steinbaum: Properly Jodi, that is why they need to both be categorised as staff underneath each the Nationwide Labor Relations Act and the Truthful Labor Requirements Act, or Uber ought to lose the proper to set costs, the best way conventional taxis have.

Beggs: My concern about Uber drivers being categorized as staff is that they might probably lose a number of autonomy.

Paul: What I agree with in Marshall’s assertion about when coordination must be authorized is that we’d like unbiased standards—unbiased of agency standingto make that willpower, although I’m not completely positive about “market energy.”

Manne: Completely agree with the primary half of Marshall’s “coordination is authorized if the events wouldn’t have market energy; unlawful in the event that they do.”

Paul: And the present system is the other of what Marshall suggests we should have: you get coordination rights from antitrust exactly if you have already got concentrated energy!

Manne: Hal, please don’t ever quote me agreeing with something Marshall says.

Steinbaum: Geoff is worried he will not be invited to the subsequent FedSoc gala, however I am positive he has some social capital stashed away so far as that is involved.

Singer: In case you would suck as much as Geoff like I do, perhaps you’d have acquired an invitation to FedSoc occasion in Malibu subsequent week. (Critically, Geoff received me an invitation.)

Manne: However why can’t a small enterprise work for a bigger enterprise? Once more, giant-scale development is completed this manner. Additionally film manufacturing. There’s an awesome paper by Mitu Gulati and Invoice Klein — a very fascinating dialogue of the organizational dynamics of huge development tasks.

Paul: Cannot consider I am not listening to Marshall scream: “Richfield Oil”!

Singer: Geoff’s answer to most competitors issues includes the little man promoting out to the large man.

Steinbaum: I truly was about to scream that after which I made a decision it did not fairly apply (for as soon as).

Paul: The concept a small enterprise shouldn’t be subordinated in a “work for” option to a big enterprise, beneath antitrust, is the entire level of Richfield Oil.

Steinbaum: Precisely.

Manne: We additionally see these small companies working for giant companies in franchise too. Why are franchise agreements evil?

Steinbaum: Not evil Geoff, simply anticompetitive.

Paul: Nicely, in franchising we’ve an identical state of affairs the place the far more highly effective agency (franchisor) is permitted to interact in all types of financial coordination–even setting franchisees’ costs–whereas disclaiming agency standing for each different objective, comparable to labor regulation and company regulation.

Steinbaum: Additionally, franchisees eligible for sponsored SBA loans!

Paul: In the meantime, franchisees are completely denied coordination rights. They can not get collectively to set shopper costs or negotiate their (oppressive) contracts with franchisors.

Manne: “Extra highly effective” implies one thing like an involuntary relationship by which the one selection the franchisee has is to be come the franchisor’s bitch. However that isn’t the case. So if the franchisee enters voluntarily right into a franchising settlement, is the alleged energy disparity actually related?

Steinbaum:Ah sure, the bilateral effectivity argument. In my econ PhD they referred to this because the “Barro Critique.” Certainly one of many empirically irrelevant concepts knocking round economics. Bork has a hilarious disquisition on how energy is  an “uneconomic idea.”

Paul: Actually the important thing that I need to talk is that antitrust itself is creating and allocating these energy differentials. Chances are you’ll agree or disagree, and we will have that dialog, however in allocating pricing rights to franchisors over franchisees’ costs, it’s making a selected coverage selection. It doesn’t need to make that selection. Identical to it does not need to make the selection that franchisees do not get to coordinate. That selection can also be inconsistent with the remedy of “franchising households” beneath company or labor regulation.

Singer: Good probability to get again to your paper, the place you converse of the “agency exemption” to antitrust. Love that phrase, by the best way. As long as issues occur inside the agency, they’re outdoors the scope of antitrust enforcement. It’s like what occurs in Vegas, however for companies. An instance I like to make use of is unique dealing: An unique dealing association between a big enter supplier and a standalone distributor is topic to antitrust scrutiny, however convey the unique distributor in-home and the publicity goes away. Briefly, how did we get right here?

Paul: Yeah, so we have had two parallel developments: 1) the agency exemption has been broadened, and a couple of) different coordination rights have been contracted. The legislators who drafted the Sherman Act didn’t obsess over the agency-market boundary. They cared about whether or not financial coordination was socially useful or dangerous.

Steinbaum: That they had a extra refined understanding of economics than the charlatans who’ve had a lot affect on the final forty years of nonsense antitrust rulings.

Manne:[Ignore. Ignore. Ignore…]

Paul: Over time antitrust has moved away from the unique legislative imaginative and prescient, and has reified the agency in addition to an concept of the aggressive order that legislators had no idea of or concern with. In that aggressive order all coordination outdoors the agency is inherently suspect, and the agency turns into a black field whose inner coordination turns into extra invisible to the official mind-set, even because it turns into extra highly effective. Can we step again for a second? I used to be going to say one thing about balancing energy however I need to say one thing perhaps we will agree on.

Manne: As if I haven’t agreed with you adequate!

Paul: On the finish of the day we’re having a debate right here about differing visions of a social and financial order. However what I would like us to get to first, analytically, is admitting that.

Singer: In Geoff’s financial order, all of us work for the person. Sorry, go on.

Beggs: And will prefer it, if I’m studying appropriately.

Manne: Admitting what, Sanjukta? That we’re debating totally different visions of a social and financial order? Too summary for me. Are you able to unpack that? (And in addition, let’s do with out the wrong caricatures of classical liberalism, Hal; you do enough of that on Twitter!).

Paul: Positive. That is the rationale I am so targeted on unearthing the agency exemption: as a result of I need to present that antitrust is making primary decisions about who will get energy in society.

Manne: Okay, however I nonetheless need assistance with what you assume we’re agreeing on.

Paul: The present antitrust framework elides that reality, and it does so by means of impartial sounding speak of companies and cartels. So that’s the deeper level. I’m truly not a lobbyist for would-be cartels. The very fact is that antitrust was far extratolerant to financial coordination that occurs outdoors companies, and much more scrutinizing of coordination that occurred inside them. If I’ve one level, it’s that we should always provide you with unbiased standards for whether or not financial coordination is sweet or dangerous,not the formalistic distinction about whether or not that coordination takes place in a agency or cartel or one thing else.

Singer: Shifting gears once more. Assuming the FTC might cease sucking as much as the platforms (because it did within the 1-800 CONTACTS case) and someway be motivated to convey a Part 1 declare towards Uber for worth fixing of passenger fares, what are the probabilities that such a declare would prevail underneath present antitrust requirements? I’m making an attempt to determine if that is critical case, Sanjukta, or if as an alternative you’re merely mentioning the double normal.

Steinbaum: If Uber is a hub-and-spoke conspiracy, like Apple e-books, then the antitrust case towards it has an excellent probability. If Uber is profitable at claiming that in contrast to the organist skilled affiliation (or its personal drivers), Uber operates a vertical worth-fixing conspiracy, then that case is far more durable to make. And given the obligatory arbitration clause, any antitrust case depends now on both the FTC or a state AG. If a state introduced it, I guess you’d see one other spurious temporary from the Feds just like the one they submitted towards Seattle.

Beggs: I feel there’s an necessary distinction with the Apple case although, primarily that if I recall appropriately, Apple was pressuring publishers to set the Apple costs on the Kindle retailer as properly or one thing comparable. The Uber case does not have a parallel, since it isn’t like drivers are setting costs on Lyft or no matter.

Manne: The prospect of success of a Part 1 declare areclose to zero. Simply saying; not claiming that’s good or dangerous.

Singer: Why zero, Geoff?

Manne: Out there for rides, by which you hypothesize Uber is worth fixing, it isn’t even dominant. However even when it have been, it isn’t worth fixing.

Paul: I’m mentioning a battle each on the degree of coverage and precept, and on the degree of constructive regulation. Nevertheless, I do need to word that I wouldn’t truly advocatebringing such a case, as a result of, as is obvious from the paper, I don’t espouse the overall rules that it rests on. I do assume these common rules are being inconsistently utilized. I feel that beneath the constructive regulation there are two prospects. Both the case towards Uber exhibits there’s a horizontal restraint and the per serule applies, through which I feel the plaintiffs prevail, interval.  Or for some cause they get outdoors the per serule—I feel that is onerous, as a result of the setting of journey costs has nothing to do with the contract about software program use that’s supposedly the topic of the connection between Uber and drivers, in line with Uber itself, and subsequently it may well’t be a vertical restraint—after which I feel it’s exhausting for them to argue that they get outdoors the per serule however drivers don’t. The type of instances that may help that—Appalachian Coals, BMI—additionally help drivers’ coordination. In truth, Appalachian Coalsmay help drivers’ coordination however not Uber’s!

Manne: That is straightforward rule of cause territory. Once more, take a look at Apple e-books. In a case like this, per se entails a full rule of cause evaluation to determine if per se applies. Beneath that evaluation, the courtroom will ask whether or not there’s any hurt and any professional-aggressive justifications. How would anybody present hurt? There isn’t any that I can see. And even when there have been, the procompetitive justifications are big.

Steinbaum: Okay, so if we’re again on this, and the plaintiff should outline markets and present market energy, then I am going to level out now that Uber does actually have worth- and wage-setting energy, per all of the proof on agency-degree provide (and demand) elasticities. Subsequently, the right market definition is that Uber is a monopsonist out there for its personal drivers. Years in the past Geoff wrote a really snarky weblog submit about how this concept is clearly flawed and laughable—it’s humorous that within the years since, eminent economics and regulation professors have embraced it.

Manne: I truly do not know what my publish has to do with the (additionally clearly mistaken and laughable) concept that Uber is a monopsonist. It’s one among my favourite posts ever, although, so I encourage readers to click on via and inform me what Marshall is speaking about.

Beggs: Marshall I assume technically it is a…duopsony?

Steinbaum: No, not a duopsony. I imply, I have never carried out an evaluation of labor provide elasticities in Uber’s case particularly, however the level of the hypothetical monopsonist testis that the fitting market definition might be only one agency large.

Beggs: Perhaps this does not prolong to all geographies, however I do not see from right here how one can think about Uber however not Lyft.

Steinbaum: Relies upon how a lot wage-setting energy Uber has. If it lowers wages, do drivers change to Lyft in enough numbers to make that wage discount unprofitable? That is what ought to set market definition. On the finish of the day, it’s an empirical matter. Dube, Naidu et al discover ridiculously low provide elasticities in a context the place they “ought to be” excessive.

Paul: Geoff, do you assume per seapplies to drivers’ coordination?

Manne: Assume BMI, NCAA, normal setting organizations, franchises, joint ventures, and so forth. There are such a lot of preparations that mightbe categorized as horizontal collusion however that the courts settle for.

Paul: Ahhh BMI! Right here is my level. BMI justifies drivers’ coordination. There isn’t a method to make use of it to immunize Uber solely.

Beggs: Oh now we’re in my wheelhouse do go on… 

Manne: I feel per se is more likely to use to drivers’ coordination, however theoretically they might make a case to get out of it. I feel it far much less doubtless although.

Paul: You’re both utilizing robust Part 1 precedent for each Uber and drivers, or you’re utilizing instances like BMI for each Uber and drivers. You’ll be able to’t use totally different authorized requirements for the 2.

Manne: It’s not binary. BMI might justify driver coordination in principle…

Paul: Geoff agrees with me once more!

Beggs: I do assume that that reply is sure.

Manne: … however it needn’t even when it justified Uber “coordination” (despite the fact that that’s not mandatory as a result of Uber is a single agency).

Paul: Can I please remind everybody that the Seattle preemption lawsuit requires instant per se remedy and if BMI applies the go well with ought to go away. If we’re in BMI territory, contemplating justifications for driver coordination, we’re out of per se land.

Manne: As I stated earlier, I’ve some sympathies with the argument that we should always allow extra contracts than we presently do! Agency or not.

Paul: Federal antitrust preemption requires displaying that the per se rule applies to the conduct approved by the state or native regulation at problem and that the statute subsequently conflicts with federal antitrust regulation on its face. See, e.g., Rice v. Norman Williams Co.(1982). By definition if we’re addressing advantages and harms underneath BMI, the statute isn’t preempted.

Manne: I disagree. Rice v. Norman Williams additionally finds preemption when a statute “locations irresistible strain on a personal social gathering to violate the antitrust legal guidelines.” The truth that there is perhaps a theoretical exception to what’s sometimes a per se violation can’t be sufficient to immunize a statute, or else no anticompetitive statute would ever be preempted by the Sherman Act. Right here, the theoretical, BMI–like profit is simply theoretical, as a result of the municipal statute (in contrast to the state statute) clearly contemplates collective bargaining for the function of decreasing costs, and imposes a construction that certainly makes a violation irresistible as a result of it requires all drivers to be sure by the collusive settlement as soon as solely a majority assents to unionization.

Paul: The BMI-like profit just isn’t theoretical. In reality you your self are dedicated to the place that it isn’t theoretical, to get Uber out of per se territory. As soon as a majority of these voting vote to offer themselves coordination rights to (partially) stability Uber’s, certainly the just about-sure enchancment in pay, working circumstances, and high quality of life will move to all drivers.

Manne: I do not depend on BMI to get Uber out of per se. I depend on there not being any settlement. And in addition, even when BMI applies in a single place it simply doesn’t suggest, as you recommend, that it should apply in one other. BMI requires a legitimate procompetitive profit to take away conduct from per se land. Both its existence means nothing is ever facially per se, and thus makes the preemption case regulation irrelevant, or (as I see it) it means coordination to profit shoppers by uniform pricing, and so on. issues, however coordination to boost enter costs doesn’t.

Paul: I don’t agree there isn’t a settlement within the Uber case however not within the driver case, and neither did Decide Rakoff (and I feel the ancillary restraint argument would additionally eviscerate the per se rule). Additionally, BMI applies in each locations as a result of each theories primarily contain coordination amongst drivers as to journey providers. I’ll depart it there for now for Hal’s sake.

Singer: Geoff thinks a displaying of hurt is important to any worth-fixing case towards Uber. So let’s go there and get the econs concerned. Persevering with with this hypothetical fare-fixing case towards Uber, how would one go about displaying that Uber passengers paid greater fares because of the alleged worth fixing? How would fares be decided within the absence of Uber’s alleged coordination of costs to be charged by its drivers? By way of an public sale by Uber drivers? Is that this even possible?

Steinbaum: Taxi corporations do not set fares. They’re set by regulators. That is the counterfactual. Or Uber might make use of its drivers.

Singer: That is tremendous-fascinating. So the however for world is one by which the regulator units fares, and people are under Uber’s fares?

Manne: The hot button is that with non-commonplace contracts, some hypothetical “market,” pre-conduct worth isn’t the right benchmark. Particularly in case your benchmark “market” worth is one set by regulators! Marshall will like this: there are tons of product market failures (to cite Williamson). Referring again to the worth (if there have been one) in a crummy, closely regulated “market” isn’t smart.

Steinbaum: The however-for regulated worth isn’t essentially under Uber’s, however it’s non-discriminatory. Uber’s enterprise mannequin on the client aspect is worth-discrimination.

Singer: Ah, so the hurt shouldn’t be greater costs Marshall, however as an alternative discriminatory costs?

Steinbaum:Sure. Plus geographic discrimination, in all probability. In fact taxis are fairly dangerous at this too, however one factor we all know now’s that Uber’s propaganda about how they “repair” that drawback is fake.

Manne: You imply the profitjust isn’t larger costs; it’s worth discrimination!

Paul: Why are all of us assuming we should always present shopper hurt solely? Additionally, there’s completely no foundation for a agency to deal with all service suppliers as unbiased contractors after which set the worth of that commodity.

Manne: No foundation in what?

Paul: Precept? Logic?

Manne: In regulation there’s; in economics there’s. Perhaps not in what you assume the regulation ought to be. However that wasn’t the query (though that’s what we have been discussing earlier than when Hal so rudely moved us on).

Paul: If a agency disclaims the employment relationship, the whole justification that has been proffered for the differential remedy of companies and cartels goes away.

Manne: Not essentially. Why ought to the excellence between employee/worker for employment regulation functions map onto anticompetitive/aggressive for antitrust regulation functions?

Paul: The idea for the agency exemption is, finally, exactly the employment relationship. The thought, going again finally to Coase, is that what occurs contained in the agency is organized by command moderately than contract and that group minimizes prices. That is the custom Bork picked up on, in arguing for loosening up on vertical restraints and mergers whereas cartels remained per se unlawful. When you convert the agency into a set of contracts, because the unbiased contractor-based mostly agency is, you lose the last word justification for the agency exemption.

Beggs: Marshall, why would Uber (within the however-for world) should classify drivers as staff when say, the tutoring firm my buddies run that units costs, classifies its tutors as unbiased contractors?

Steinbaum: Your pal’s tutoring enterprise is in violation of the Richfield Oilnormal, alas.

Manne: An ordinary that, at greatest, applies within the Southern District of California, in a considerably totally different context, and (I consider) hasn’t been prolonged because it was adopted by that courtroom within the Nineteen Fifties.

Singer: In the previous few minutes, I might like to listen to what coverage levers you’d pull in case you have been in cost to rectify this nice injustice. Assuming antitrust regulation is helplessly constrained by the Chicago Faculty teachings and the buyer-welfare normal, what are some legislative fixes that might restore coordination rights to staff or to smaller companies?

Steinbaum: My coverage proposal is to revive Richfield Oil: both you are an employer, or you’ll be able to’t inform individuals what to do.

Beggs: Scorching take coverage concept: The social gathering that does not have direct pricing authority ought to get to collectively discount.

Paul:I like that!

Steinbaum: I might rephrase “direct pricing authority” as “market energy.”

Manne: Everybody ought to get to collectively discount! Unions are authorized and—one other shocker from me—typically environment friendly within the collective bargaining sense. Return to Marshall’s market energy display (i.e., what the regulation was). Take away the half that claims market energy means no coordination. However with out market energy, why wouldn’t it ever be presumptively inefficient to coordinate? (The rationale it is perhaps smart as a matter of regulationis administrative effectivity. Which I might say is the rationale why the regulation is like it isn’t some grand Marxian conspiracy.

Paul: I’m more and more satisfied that is key to the benefits the agency exemption provides to those that have already got energy (energy within the sense of wealth, entry to capital). Nevertheless, I want to hear a definition of “market energy.” If it doesn’t embrace elements like property rights or entry to capital, it isn’t sufficiently broad, and we’d like a broader idea of financial energy to exchange it for functions of allocating coordination rights.

Manne: Wow—settlement throughout. If no market energy, then collective bargaining is okay. Proper? All of us agree?

Beggs: one hundred%. Walras can be so mad at us, however yeah.

Singer: Sanjukta, any last coverage choice right here?

Paul: Broaden entry to coordination rights, together with looser horizontal coordination past agency boundaries that doesn’t contain managerial hierarchies or concentrated possession, with applicable public oversight. [This consists of reversing the course of precedents like Sealy and Topco.]Additionally, extra stringent software of antitrust to take care of decentralized markets would assist to take care of a extra balanced allocation of coordination rights. That is true in itself in fact, however it will additionally blunt a few of the investor-dealing with dynamics inside companies like Uber that we mentioned earlier. These dynamics not solely affect pricing conduct but in addition exacerbate imbalances with various types of group like producer cooperatives.

Singer:I like that one too! That’s a wrap, gang. Thanks a lot for collaborating!!